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  The Chatter Box : Blathering On
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Pope John Paul II R.I.P by bsh1878 on 3 April 2005 9:45pm
You are aware by now that His Holiness Pope John Paul II has passed away after a long illness. I would ask that you include the Holy Father in your prayers.

Lord, take your brother, Pope John Paul II into your keeping and look after him now and forever
Through Lord Jesus Christ, Amen
Re: Pope John Paul II R.I.P by Wild in Africa on 4 April 2005 12:07pm
I know this will inflame some passions but it needs saying. Although John Paul II did much in terms of the liberation of Poland and in providing leadership in the Catholic church, his pontificate was also deeply flawed. I say this as a Catholic myself.
In particular his messages forbidding the use of condoms to control HIV in Africa was a deeply damaging message and I believe has contributed directly to the slow miserable deaths of countless Africans, and indeed others around the world, and this awful legacy lives on. His intolerance towards Gays, Women priests etc was also misguided and offensive.
I may be out of step with many around the world at the moment but before the 'John Paul was a Saint' bandwagon gets carried away with itself we must remember him as perhaps a well meaning, but flawed man, who despite believing deeply in his own infalibility nevertheless was guilty of serious errors of judgement that have impacted terribly on many people. in the world.
If he with his god I hope it is as a contrite sinner, and certainly not with a halo at god's right hand.
Re: Pope John Paul II R.I.P by perfectbitch on 4 April 2005 3:20pm
I could not agree with you more Wild. i too was raised as Catholic and decided that, for me, I would rather take responsibility for my own beliefs and actions than be told how to live.
Re: Pope John Paul II R.I.P by Spursfan on 4 April 2005 3:43pm
I also agree with WIA (although I'm an atheist who was born C of E). He seemed a good bloke but was misguided in some ways especially the condom issue.

I find it hard to take the way people venerate the pope (any, not just JP II) - he's just a bloke like any other but who has risen to the top of his chosen profession.

Felt sorry for JP at the end - as I would any fellow human who was suffering and also had millions of people being told his every symptom!!

Re: Pope John Paul II R.I.P by George on 4 April 2005 6:45pm
I'm not a Catholic, but there were things about John Paul I admire temendously. Some of writings showed a surpassing intellect and he was warm & generous man. I agree with WiA, that some of the church's teaching make no sense, but for a 2 thousand year old organization, you can only expect so much. I heard a man speak yesterday who said, in effect, the next pope will likely be an older man, who will bring fresh ideas to the church, but won't stay too.
Re: Pope John Paul II R.I.P by Wild in Africa on 4 April 2005 7:13pm
I agree there was much to admire about him but I tend to cynicism about instant deification without a critical assessment of his life. There are plenty of obituaries being written that do look at his life and achievements critically.
Calling him 'The Great' and talking about Sainthood rubs me up the wrong way though when I think of the suffering of those who's lives are blighted with AIDS due to his teachings and example, and the radical priests excommunicated from the church because they fought for the rights of the poor. There is too much contradiction in some of these actions and too much dogmatism that caused many people to suffer greatly and unduly. I was living in Kenya for some years and saw the way that the Catholic church suppressed and damned condom use in the face of all the evidence that it could save lives and it made me so angry.
Re: Pope John Paul II R.I.P by harvey123 on 4 April 2005 7:48pm
i know previous people on the thread have wrote this but i'm going to put my pennys worth in!
I cannot follow a belief that condems the use of condoms, a intolerance of gaymen and women and women priests etc. I have heard in the past that the churches aren't as full as they used to be..well i wonder why! This is the year 2005 and people are more tolerant/excepting/more educated and aware of gay men and women, aids epidemic, equal oppurtunities for women being priests etc etc. I could NOT put my faith and live my life for a god and church that has such pre-historic backward misguided thinking. Everyone is pouring there heart out to the pope..but take a moment to think of those dying with aids because of the churches ignorance. I think it is very sad that he died especially it being so public with all details and you have to remeber this is my opinion and i respect other members beliefs. You live you life that way and thats fine.
Re: Pope John Paul II R.I.P by AGM on 4 April 2005 7:57pm
It was hard to watch him suffer. I'm glad that's over, but I miss him.
Re: Pope John Paul II R.I.P by Dr. Piglet on 4 April 2005 8:01pm
i think the "third world" scene in "the meaning of life" sums it all up rather well.

Re: Pope John Paul II R.I.P by sarahs on 4 April 2005 9:18pm
I'm sorry, but I greatly disagree with all of you.

Pope John Paul II was a great man and he deserves to be on the right hand of God. His opinion on contraception may have been misguided, but it is wrong to say he is a sinner because of that.

He was a major influence in my life, and he has shaped the person I am today. I was so upset by his death, but I am happy his suffering is over and he can be in peace. I loved him dearly and am greatly saddened. And yes, I am a Catholic.

And honestly, what upset me even further was the remarks that wild in africa made. At least show some respect, the pain and upset his death brought is still fresh.
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